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Customer's Complaint Rate: "foreign" vs. "American". The Reality Check.


stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #1
Let's do the reality check.

FACT: There is no real evidence that CUSTOMERS complaint rate against "foreign" companies is greater than "American" companies. The unsatisfactory rate is about the same. Just check the complaints here and keep in mind the number of "foreign" versus "American" website customers is about the same.

Those who TRY to artificially create the bubble that the "foreign" companies are much worse than "American" companies are:

- the owners of the "American" companies (who actively participate on this forum),

- the writers of the "American" companies (who actively participate on this forum).

But the voices of these two groups should be neutralized because they are totally biased, it's pure propaganda against their foreign competitors who don't bother to spend time here.

What are a member's 4000+ posts worth when it's known he's in direct competition with the foreign-based companies? Same goes about his buddies who work for the same company.

Enough said. The reader should do the math him/herself.
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #2
Having worked for both a foreign site (which recently offered to hire me back--no thanks, Michael) and an American site, I can firmly state that the level of complaints, as measured by rewrite requests and demands for a refund, is considerably higher at at least one foreign site (UVO Corp; a list of its consumer end sites is available in other threads, though if WB wanted to post it again here no one would complain) than at the American site I currently work for (name withheld to avoid self-promotion).

Yes, I write for an American company. If UVO played fair with their writers, I'd still be working there, too. As it is, they kicked me off of their supposedly open complaint forum (gradleancer.com--check it out if you want to do your own comparison, customers) simply for posting well-reasoned accusations and complaints.

You, stu4, are known to be associated with these foreign sites, so your bias is at least as strong as anyone else's here. FACT: you have no idea what complaint rates for American companies are. FACT: most of the customers that post here to complain reference foreign sites that provide plagiarized and/or unintelligible essays, neither of which are accusations leveled against American companies when such complaints are posted.
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #3
I can firmly state that the level of complaints, as measured by rewrite requests and demands for a refund, is considerably higher at at least one foreign site

If anything, you could notice that only because these companies offer free revision policies and refunds and their operation system panels are much more sophisticated and open than some of the "American" companies that hide anything that could tell the truth about their real un-satisfactory ratio.

Yes, I write for an American company. If UVO played fair with their writers, I'd still be working there, too. As it is, they kicked me off of their supposedly open complaint forum (gradleancer.com--check it out if you want to do your own comparison, customers) simply for posting well-reasoned accusations and complaints.

The customer doesn't care about your experience as a writer, they care about the final product.

FACT: you have no idea what complaint rates for American companies are.

Just check the number of complaints against "foreign" and "American" companies on this forum to get the better idea (ie. that the ratio is about the same).

most of the customers that post here to complain reference foreign sites that provide plagiarized and/or unintelligible essays, neither of which are accusations leveled against American companies when such complaints are posted.

Because in many cases American companies don't deliver the paper at all :). And then the client posts here to ask why he was charged but the paper was not delivered.
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #4
free revision policies and refunds

The American companies were here LONG before you, child. They all offer refunds and free re-writes.

operation system panels are much more sophisticated and open than some of the "American" companies

That's true, but only because you Ukrainians tend to have specialized in programming and design BEFORE entering the paper business.

The customer doesn't care about your experience as a writer, they care about the final product.

Indeed, those two things are mutually exclusive. Imbecile.
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #5
you could notice that only because these companies offer free revision policies and refunds and their operation system panels are much more sophisticated and open than some of the "American" companies that hide anything that could tell the truth about their real un-satisfactory ratio.

Wrong. Customers are allowed to request rewrites directly from the writers at the American company I work for, which generates an email (actually notifying me of the request, rather than forcing me to constantly check my assignment board) just as they can at UVO. Very few orders are ever reposted after being taken at the American company, whereas this was a constant occurrence at UVO--which says something about initial quality, doesn't it?

The customer doesn't care about your experience as a writer, they care about the final product.

Precisely.

Just check the number of complaints against "foreign" and "American" companies on this forum to get the better idea (ie. that the ratio is about the same).

I have not conducted a statistical survey of the site, and I sincerely doubt that you have either, but in my experience this statement is a blatant lie. There are new threads started several times a week by people complaining about foreign sites; only rarely regarding actual American/UK business (except the Oxbridge folks, who are complete rip-offs).

Because in many cases American companies don't deliver the paper at all :). And then the client posts here to ask why he was charged but the paper was not delivered.

Credit cards are charged when the customer places an order. When an American company is unable to suitably complete an assignment, this charge is automatically reversed/refunded on the next billing cycle. If it wasn't, these companies would quickly lose their contracts with the credit card companies and processors due to complaints (customers: al you have to do is file a dispute with your CC company and you'll get your money back even faster--though this really isn't necessary). Foreign sites will produce some piece of garbage for ANY assignment, whether or not they can handle it (and they usually can't), precisely so the charges WON'T be reversed by the CC companies.
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #6
What are a member's 4000+ posts worth when it's known he's in direct competition with the foreign-based companies?

Hey, Stewy, I'm still waiting on that evidence of yours, LYING SCUMBAG!

1. Prove that any of my claims or evidence are false.

2. Prove that I work for any company.

Why has doing either been so utterly impossible for countless fraudsters like you? Have I not given you crooked idiots enough time? LOL!
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #7
When an American company is unable to suitably complete an assignment, this charge is automatically reversed/refunded on the next billing cycle.

Right, and these companies that "care so much" about their clients don't even bother to notify the client that they won't deliver the paper. And they won't answer their emails when the due date comes and the paper is not delivered.

Let me tell you, That is a GREAT customer service (who cares about someone you cannot steal money from after all). You should be "proud" of your business and customer service practices.
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #8
The customer doesn't care about your experience as a writer, they care about the final product.

I agree with this. However, the "final product" is often of bad quality with sites that don't screen their writers well. These are the same sites who pay their writers measly amounts for their work. Since they pay such pitiful wages, they often get unqualified writers. Sadly, most of these sites are not American. Sadder still, the writers who accept these measly wages are often ESLs from poor countries like mine.

I am a non-native English speaker. Logically, I should be defending "these" sites. Yet, I don't. It is the presence of sites like these that have brought my rate down and have made it difficult for me to work for good companies. I just got lucky. But, what about the others like me who are still struggling?

Sites like these have wrecked the industry!
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #9
Guys, it's the same, sad, lame story every time Mr. Ukraine shows up here. Same false accusations. Same lack of evidence. Same beat-down.
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #10
These are the same sites who pay their writers measly amounts for their work. Since they pay such pitiful wages, they often get unqualified writers.

Since they CHARGE LESS, they pay less their writers, it's logical.

However, the "final product" is often of bad quality with sites that don't screen their writers well.

You keep repeating this mantra borrowed from the "American guys."

IF it was that bad there would be numerous complaints a day on this or similar forums - where they are? And these companies would be forced not to accept credit cards because of high chargeback rate (which is not the case).

So you write what you've heard but the facts and evidence is just not there.

Guys, it's the same, sad, lame story every time Mr. Ukraine shows up here. Same false accusations. Same lack of evidence. Same beat-down.

And you post same 'nevermind the facts from the foreign scammers' story (especially that you feel the proven point is against your agenda). 4000+ posts and still so predictable... :)
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #11
IF it was that bad there would be numerous complaints a day on this or similar forums - where they are?

Are you blind? Have you seen an optometrist lately? I suggest you do.

Since they CHARGE LESS, they pay less their writers, it's logical.

Precisely! Thank you! That's why I'm getting paid less now. I write a lot better than these "fake" writers and yet I get paid the same wages. Where's the justice in that?
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #12
And you post same 'nevermind the facts from the foreign scammers' story

Again, can you please quote one of my "facts" that you claim is false?

Since [foreign sites] CHARGE LESS, they pay less their writers, it's logical.

That's not the case any more, and you damn well know it. Most of the foreign fraudsters (like you) now charge just as much (or more) than American companies. You do so because such low rates became a dead giveaway of your foreign status. You intentionally hide this crucial information from the American consumers at whom you target 95% of your marketing. Higher prices; same, unqualified, horrid, underpaid, desperate, can't-get-anything-better, ESL writers from Pakistan, India, and the Philippines.
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #13
And these companies would be forced not to accept credit cards because of high chargeback rate (which is not the case).

Chargebacks only work (as I said above) when there is no product delivered at all. Otherwise, it's buyer beware--that's the policy of the credit card companies, not mine or the companies I have worked for.
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #14
Precisely! Thank you! That's why I'm getting paid less now. I write a lot better than these "fake" writers and yet I get paid the same wages. Where's the justice in that?

IF that's the case, you must be a moron (sorry to be blunt).

Ask yourself: "Why would I be paid LESS if I write on the same or better level than American writers?"

It is YOU who are the problem because you don't believe in yourself and your own skills. You allowed to talk yourself into the bull*it of the American owners like Justin who would tell you that you should be happy to write for less just because you don't live in the US.

I bet they joke at you behind your back saying you are 'yet another Asian ESL writer who dares to get good money despite he lives overseas'.

And your post is another proof of working injustice in most American companies who pay you not for your skills, but for your residence location or even race.
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #15
If someone can explain this so that it a)makes sense, and b)shows how it supports stu4's arguments concerning the legitimacy of foreign sites, I would be most appreciative.

I won't bother to point out the grammatical errors and omission in syntax that belie stu4's incapability of judging, let alone providing, decent academic papers in English.
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #16
It is YOU who are the problem because you don't believe in yourself and your own skills.

That's not true. You don't know what I've been through. You make sweeping statements without knowing the background. I will tell you, however, that I don't write for academic sites; but what's happening with academic sites has already affected our neck of the woods.
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #17
If someone can explain this so that it a)makes sense, and b)shows how it supports stu4's arguments concerning the legitimacy of foreign sites, I would be most appreciative.

Exactly. WTF? I think somebody has shaken baby syndrome.

I won't bother to point out the grammatical errors and omission in syntax that belie stu4's incapability of judging, let alone providing, decent academic papers in English.

By a show of hands, who thinks that Stu4 is qualified to judge English-language writing proficiency?
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #18
If someone can explain this so that it a)makes sense, and b)shows how it supports stu4's arguments concerning the legitimacy of foreign sites, I would be most appreciative.

It doesn't, in both cases.

By a show of hands, who thinks that Stu4 is qualified to judge English-language writing proficiency?

Nay!
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #19
It doesn't, in both cases.

Here I agree with WB - you shouldn't judge anything because you are an ESL writer and cannot think straight.
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #20
Is that a personal attack? What happened to objectivity? Are you, by any chance, running out of objective answers?
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #21
1) WB has never made this suggestion
2) AsianWriter's English skills are superior to yours
3) You are an ESL writer, therefore by your own statement you should not be judging anything (THAT, Melissa, is being hoisted on your own petard)

4) I am not an ESL writer, and I think your statement was senseless. Care to clarify?
WRT 16 | 1,714 ☆☆   Company Representative
Oct 29, 2009 | #22
Am busy at the moment, St4 but will be back to blast you in a couple of hrs.
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #23
Is that a personal attack? What happened to objectivity? Are you, by any chance, running out of objective answers?

No, I'm just trying to tell you that you are on the wrong side. You are and will always be an ESL Writer, but now you seem to forget it. But they will never forget it and will remind you on the next occasion.

In other words, let's say you are of the "Asian race". But you moved to the town of the white guys only (who hardly accept Asian guys in their town) because you are a good cook. And they pay you an acceptable wage you would not earn in your foreign country.

You've been comfortably living there for a while to the point that when you see another Asian guy in the town you shout with the other white guys to get the hell out of here. You forgot your roots and you don't even know the white guys are making fun of you when they are alone. And they always will even if your skills were unmatched.

Now you shout at me to despite I'm the "Asian guy" too. But you may understand what I mean the next time you look for a job.
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #24
PROJECTION
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #25
You are and will always be an ESL Writer

And to those of us without an unstated agenda, this doesn't matter in the slightest (my aunt is Filipino, by the way--quite a sharp lady and an excellent cook, too).

You've been comfortably living there for a while to the point that when you see another Asian guy in the town you shout with the other white guys to get the hell out of here.

What exactly is this supposed to be analogous to?

Now you shout at me to despite I'm the "Asian guy" too.

No one's "shouting" at you. We're disagreeing with you because your claims are ridiculous and unfounded. It has nothing to do with nationality.

And, by the way, this sentence contains several errors that ought to be corrected.
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #26
No one's "shouting" at you. We're disagreeing with you because your claims are ridiculous and unfounded. It has nothing to do with nationality.

I don't even know how you can look at the mirror:

Ukrainian

Pakistani

Indian

And don't forget to check who started and participated in all these threads that have "nothing to do with nationality."
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #27
Stu4,

I believe you've got this all wrong. This isn't about race. This is about "bad industry practices". It just so happens that these "bad practices" are done by non-American sites. It isn't the "white guy" beating me down... it's my fellow non-Americans.

You say that, one day, these Americans will disown me. Maybe so... but what about now? These non-Americans, by their calloused behavior, have already given me problems.

I haven't forgotten my heritage. Frankly, there are no sites of this nature owned by Filipinos. And, Ukrainians are not my countrymen either. I'm not going against my countrymen (unless they claim to be writers but are unqualified). I am simply making a stand against the bad practices of other non-American sites that have caused me and others like me to suffer.
WritersBeware  
Oct 29, 2009 | #28
I don't even know how you can look at the mirror:

Moron, I will now explain for about the 50th time. Get this through your thick, UKRAINIAN skull: the one and only reason why I (and anyone else) mention geographical locations is because YOU and your fraudulent comrades LIE to American customers about YOUR geographical locations as a calculated means to FOOL them into ordering your horribly inferior product.

(FYI, I labeled your thick skill as "Ukrainian" because you lie about being American on both your sites and in your profile in this forum. See the parallelism?)

stu4 us lie
OP stu4 24 | 893 ☆☆   Observer
Oct 29, 2009 | #29
Frankly, there are no sites of this nature owned by Filipinos.

So you are from Philippines? You MUST be a fraud then! Just check WB's "proofs" (he again, didn't forget to point out the nationality):

Phillipine fraud
AsianWriter - | 167  
Oct 29, 2009 | #30
I've seen these before. I do read a lot... but apparently, you don't. You see the word "Philippines" and you immediately jump to conclusions.

None of these sites are owned by Filipinos. We are simply hired to work for these Ukrainian companies. They come to our country because, frankly, we, with our lack of English skills, still speak better than they do. And since my countrymen are poor, they will work for these idiots because it means food on the table. I don't condone this. I hate that Filipinos are being used to further their evil plans. I hate that Filipinos allow themselves to be used.

Now tell me... Was that supposed to get me all fired up against the "racist American pigs"? Well it didn't work. Wrong is wrong! It doesn't matter who did it... Filipinos, Americans, Brits, Ukrainians, etc... It only matters that they are wrong.
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #31
It doesn't matter who did it... Filipinos, Americans, Brits, Ukrainians, etc... It only matters that they are wrong.

Which is precisely what everyone here without an unscrupulous greed has been saying all along.
rustyironchains 12 | 729 ☆☆  
Oct 29, 2009 | #32
speaking as a writer personally working hard in the industry right now, I can tell you that I am coming across more and more customers ordering total revisions and claiming they have been ripped off by writers who obviously don't speak English.

companies need to have better tests and outsource their testing to ESL teaching companies. I keep telling them that I am a gun for hire in each of these industries, but they are afraid to outsource to me, because I obviously hate their stupid authority. (sigh) ****! I mean, uh, hi! hi company owners!

but yes definitely, customers in the US at least, seem to know when they have been ripped off by a writer who can't write in English, and demand total revisions. I have cleaned up at least 3 of these messes so far this season, and it's early...
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #33
I have cleaned up at least 3 of these messes so far this season, and it's early...

Out of curiosity, do these order pay you the same per page as original orders? UVO always tried to get away with calling them "rewrites" regardless.

by the way, I'm pretty sure stu4 got booted after posting a screenshot from an American company--at least, that post is gone and he hasn't been heard from since it disappeared.
WRT 16 | 1,714 ☆☆   Company Representative
Oct 29, 2009 | #34
There is no real evidence that CUSTOMERS complaint rate against "foreign" companies is greater than "American" companies. The unsatisfactory rate is about the same. Just check the complaints here and keep in mind the number of "foreign" versus "American" website customers is about the same.

I have worked with British, American and Ukranian companies. On the basis of personal experience (which I won't generalise), I disagree. With the Brits and Americans, I only ever revised another writer's work a couple of times. With the Ukranians, I can safely say (and have the supporting evidence), that I spent most of my time, revising the work of others. More often than not, revision was virtually impossible for one of the following reasons:

1) I genuinly couldn't understand the ESL writer's English;
2) the work was plagiarised
3) the write-up had nothing to do with the order instructions.
Rewriting from scratch was always the easier option.
Customer complaint rates are not, in my experience, remotely comparable. Certainly, we would get some problematic customers but, in general, most were satisfied and were loyal to the site/the company. With the Ukranians, customer complaints were never-ending and sometimes tended towards the rude. One had to sympathise, however. It was not unusual that I be the third or fourth writer assigned to the order and by the time it got around to me, the customer would have formed a highly negative opinion of the site and its writers. It is largely because of this that Ukranian site customers develop writer-loyalty and, hardly ever, website-loyalty.

There is no doubt that the Ukranian companies have some good writers and it is this group which has helped them survive the rotten publicity they deservedly receive. The majority of their writers, however, are illiterate, uneducated fools. Their Admin is even worse because most do not even understand English. Hence, they invariably miscommunicate client messages and instructions to writers, and writer messages to clients. The end result is, often, a horrid customer experience.

As I said, I will not presume to generalise my experience but I strongly believe that your contention, Stu4, is ridiculous.

Those who TRY to artificially create the bubble that the "foreign" companies are much worse than "American" companies are:

- the owners of the "American" companies (who actively participate on this forum),

- the writers of the "American" companies (who actively participate on this forum).

No. You are much worse and most of what is posted here is based on the personal experience of writers and customers.

Stu4, as you know, the Ukranian companies don't have a writer screening and recruitment process/policy in place. When we apply to US or British companies, we are thoroughly screened and they do not take our resumes at face value. We provide proof of our degrees, our nationality and sign a contract or a writer policy. When I applied to the first foreign site I ever worked for (Ukranian), they took everything I said at face value. I never provided (nor was asked to) proof of my degrees or nationality. All I had to do was write this stupid 1 page essay on "Plagiarism." I was accepted on the spot and assigned orders right there and then. One of the very first orders they assigned me, an untrained writer (as far as they were concerned, I was), was an MSc dissertation. Why did they assign it to me, a writer whom they had no experience with and knew anything about? Simply because they did not, as still do not, give a fig about their customers.

The other companies, RWC, EW and Allwriting, just recruited me. They never asked me for anything, not even a sample of my writing.

The reader should do the math him/herself.

Yes, please. At an average CPP of $4.5 per page, you get illiterates. Is an undergrad (let alone a grad or post grad) going to settle for that type of money? Stu4, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

It is YOU who are the problem because you don't believe in yourself and your own skills. You allowed to talk yourself into the bull*it of the American owners like Justin who would tell you that you should be happy to write for less just because you don't live in the US.

No, Stu4. You and your gang are the ones who pay peanuts, not the Americans and not the Brits. You are the ones responsible for the entry of hordes of unqualified ESL writers into this industry and for the subsequent devaluation of ALL ESL WRITERS. The Americans and Brits do not have a race-based fee policy in place. Nationality and race are utterly irrelevant.

you shouldn't judge anything because you are an ESL writer and cannot think straight.

Flawed logic. An ESL writer, even an utterly unqualified one, is probably capable of rational thought in his/her native language. You, however, are not. Your irrationality is not a consequence of your nationality but, an integral part of your mindset. Stu4, injecting race and nationality into this debate is senseless. Let's talk qualified and unqualified writers, regardless of race and nationality but, as determined by education and linguistic proficiency.

This isn't about race. This is about "bad industry practices".

Right. Why can everyone but you and your cronies see this, Stu4?

It just so happens that these "bad practices" are done by non-American sites.

I disagree. Melissa Madgwick is a native speaker but cannot write and, importantly, theft, deceit and lies are the foundations of her sites.

companies need to have better tests and outsource their testing to ESL teaching companies.

Good idea.

So you are from Philippines? You MUST be a fraud then!

Don't misrepresent. How about the Australian or British sites which were exposed right here, on this forum? While scam has no nationality, a tremendous percentage of the scammers are Ukranian, Pakistani and Indian. Do you know why? Because your consumer protection and business accountability laws are non-existent or underdeveloped. You can get away, scot-free, with things which we would be torn apart for even considering. The absence of solid Sales of Service, Consumer Protection, Consumer Fraud and Business Accountability laws, functions to encourage and promote blatant dishonesty.

You are and will always be an ESL Writer, but now you seem to forget it. But they will never forget it and will remind you on the next occasion.

You wish. Stu4, if you people hadn't allowed illiterates into the industry, the ESL debate would never have begun. Had you recruited people like AsianWriter, ESL would never have been mentioned at all.

Your argument is both tired and boring, Stu4.

Scurry off, now.
rustyironchains 12 | 729 ☆☆  
Oct 29, 2009 | #35
Out of curiosity, do these order pay you the same per page as original orders? UVO always tried to get away with calling them "rewrites" regardless.

at AR, they show up as new orders, with visible customer complaints from the previous writer, but no attachments. it's basically doing the whole paper over for probably about the original rate and a half.

*about the previous writer

I'd like to hear from some early capitalist robber barons on this issue...
pheelyks  
Oct 29, 2009 | #36
Not that it excused their business practices or their treatment of their workers, but in the old days the robber barons were also the biggest philanthropists the world has ever seen--modern company (i.e. Bill and Melinda Gates...and others?) included, in inflation-adjusted terms. There wasn't a sense of responsibility to the company, but there was a high degree of social responsibility.



Forum / Essay Services / Customer's Complaint Rate: "foreign" vs. "American". The Reality Check.

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